tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6547653347296107692.post5969132244377866630..comments2024-01-09T12:59:32.666+01:00Comments on Narrative and Ontology: Is this an absolute or construct noun?Phil Sumpterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16491514886782881340noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6547653347296107692.post-67329243129023921222009-06-18T18:57:11.614+02:002009-06-18T18:57:11.614+02:00Update: I contradicted myself. I stick with what I...Update: I contradicted myself. I stick with what I said at the end of the comment, <em>doroshav</em> is <em>not</em>, in my book, a pure-noun participle. I think that's important to the argument.Phil Sumpterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16491514886782881340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6547653347296107692.post-74182453479561061702009-06-18T18:55:42.233+02:002009-06-18T18:55:42.233+02:00Thanks for your comments, Kevin (I will get back t...Thanks for your comments, Kevin (I will get back to your e-mail!).<br /><br /><em> Participles are substantives in classical Hebrew</em><br /><br />I thought they were only sometimes substantive. Van der Merwe says the following: "The participle is by definition a verbal adjective. Syntactically the participle in BH functions as a verb, noun or adjective.<br />BH Biblical Hebrew." In this case, however, it certainly is a noun (A-F call it a <em>pure noun participle</em>).<br /><br /><em>If דּוֹר were absolute, I think you'd see an imperfect here (or a waw+perfect commencing the verse) rather than a participle.</em><br /><br />I'm afraid I don't follow this. There are a number of examples of absolute nouns being standing in apposition to an indefinite participle which functions as a relative clause. Here are some examples which are most related (according to the A-F system and my newly acquired yet shaky syntax searching abilities):<br /><br /> men of Lud, skilled in handling • the bow. / וְלוּדִים תֹּפְשֵׂי דֹּרְכֵי קָשֶׁת׃ (Jer. 46. 9).<br /> Hegai, the • king’s eunuch, who is in charge of the women / הֵגֶא סְרִיס הַמֶּלֶךְ שֹׁמֵר הַנָּשִׁים (Esth. 2:3)<br />survivors ... who will be brought out / פְּלֵטָה הַמּוּצָאִים (Ezek 14:22).<br />plants yielding seed / עֵשֶׂב מַזְרִיעַ זֶרַע<br />God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth / לְאֵל עֶלְיֹון קֹנֵה שָׁמַיִם וָאָרֶץ׃<br /><br />In fact, I've even discovered to syntactically similar clauses in which the abosolute noun and its participle qualifier (placed in apposition) are the complement of a demonstrative pronoun (as in our Psalm):<br /><br /> <br />Deut 3:5 כָּל־אֵלֶּה עָרִים בְּצֻרֹות חֹומָה גְבֹהָה / All these were cities fortified with high walls <br /><br /><br />Is not this a brand plucked from the fire” ? / הֲלֹוא זֶה אוּד מֻצָּל מֵאֵשׁ (Zech 3:2).<br /><br />Here are some examples of the construction you (and the Westminster Morphology) are proposing:<br /><br />the gate of his enemies / שַׁעַר אֹיְבָיו׃<br />out of the hand of the shepherds / מִיַּד הָרֹעִים <br />right ear of him who is to be cleansed / אֹזֶן הַמִּטַּהֵר<br />all those listed / כָּל־הַפְּקֻדִים<br /><br />One thing that seems to stand out is that when the noun is in the construct state, the participle really is a <em>pure noun participle</em>. In Ps 24:6, however, I don't think <em>doroshav</em> really is a pure noun participle. I think it is a noun-verb participle (oddly enough, A-F contradict themselves here. They call the ketiv a pure-noun participle, but the qeri, which differs only in that it has plural suffix, they label a noun-verb participle. Wie? Either way, they opt for the qeri). <br /><br />It seems to me that the function of the clause in Ps 24:6a is to describe the nature of the one outlined in the previous sentence (vv.4-5), not to describe Jacob at the end of this clause (Jacob is a vocative, in my opinion. I may post on that later, though see here).<br /><br />Finally, I found three instances where a construct noun+participle is the complement of a demonstrative pronoun (just like in Ps 24.6), though I think only one of them is valid as the other two are a pure adjectivce and a pure noun respectively (in Ps24:6 we have a verbal noun, i.e. the focus is on the action and not a fixed status):<br /><br />This is the law for her who bears a child / זֹאת תֹּורַת הַיֹּלֶדֶת (Lev 12:7). <br /><br />Having said that, perhaps הַיֹּלֶדֶת is also a pure noun.<br /><br />In sum, I've managed to convince myself in the process of responding to your comments that dor is most likely absolute. It depends on the semantics of <em>doroshav</em> and the discourse function of <em>dor</em> within the Psalm. The issue is identity. v. 6 identifies the person described in vv. 4-5, who is provided as an (indirect?) answer to the question posed in v. 3, it clarifies the answer.by means of a relative clause (a generation which) rather than simply state a supposed fact (the generation of). The fact that Jacob is a vocative helps this.<br /><br />These thoughts are rushed and not explained well, but thanks for itneracting. I'll read through this once again and make it the subject of a later post.Phil Sumpterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16491514886782881340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6547653347296107692.post-68847287503997412322009-06-17T01:13:50.861+02:002009-06-17T01:13:50.861+02:00In either reading, דּוֹר is construct. Participle...In either reading, דּוֹר is construct. Participles are substantives in classical Hebrew, effectively nouns: "one doing..." or "those doing...."<br /><br />So, instead, the options are:<br />"This is the generation of those seeking him; those searching out your face, Jacob. Selah."<br /><br />or<br /><br />"This is the generation of one seeking him; those searching out your face, Jacob. Selah."<br /><br />If דּוֹר were absolute, I think you'd see an imperfect here (or a waw+perfect commencing the verse) rather than a participle.<br /><br />Perhaps the ketiv, with the singular דרשו, makes better sense of that oddly hanging Jacob, making it clearer that the דּוֹר is actually Israel/Jacob:<br /><br />"This is the generation of one/those seeking him; those searching out your face: [the generation of] Jacob. Selah."Kevin P. Edgecombhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16590490181739464401noreply@blogger.com